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Old May 7th   #1
mdb4879
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Possibly Drifting?

hey, lately i've been hooked in drifting. i remembered when we got all that snow this past winter and divring up and down the streets sideways and how much fun it was. now the past couple of days my mind has been wrapped around the idea and i kinda want to get started. or at least go to an empty parking lot and get a feel for it

so here's my plan. i think i'm gonna hunt around for some cheap beat up s13 240sx hatch (beat up so it isn't too big of a deal if i hit something, which hopefully won't happen), getting a second diff ond locking it up, then kicking it sideways a few times. this isn't going to be any kind of daily driver, so i'm thinking the stiffer the suspension the better. so how about getting a second set of struts from a junk yard and welding bars on them to make the solid? sound like a plan?
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Old May 8th   #2
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Even with wanting a cheap car, you still don't want something that you are going to have to dump money into or something that has rust issues.

If you get an s13, you don't HAVE to get a 2nd diff...you could just weld the one that is in there, but personally I would spend the money on a good LSD. Suspension is key, but you should also think about safety.

You are going to get a ton of different opinions and answers. You can go the cheap route, but in the end you usually get what you pay for, and if you are "rigging" things together...well, that's on you.

Have a ton of fun learning and driving, but remember to be safe!

P.S. - There are a ton of other options for cars that are cheap for drifting, so don't limit yourself. As with any car, it comes down to budget.
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Old May 8th   #3
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Some good sound advice. And to speed the learning curve, I think learning to drive a car to its edge is key. And autocrossing is a great way to learn that. Any good autocrosser can drift. Just ask anyone who drove the course today. Ever seen a crown vic in a drift? You would have today.

You will have to be careful with even the word 'drift' in Huntsville as it holds the same connotations as street racing if not worse. While drift has more of a 'lifestyle' component to it than any other form of motorsport, it's not a requirement.
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Old May 9th   #4
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yeah, i know you get what you pay for, but i also don't want to dump too much money into something i might not get into. i wanted a second diff so if needed i could just put it back to stock. and it'd be cheap enough that if i do keep the car i didn't lose too much money messing with cheap stuff. i've always liked the s13 hatch's so that's why i said that, but what else is there other than miata's and e30's just out of curiosity?

i might now even get a cheap junky one tho, i started looking a bit and i've seen a few decent one's and idk if i could really stand driving a POS. and solid struts were a random thought, and probably not the best one, but how does that sound? and thanks for the tips and i'll be sure to be safe. i'm really good about knowing when to do "stupid stuff" so that it isn't actually "stupid"
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Old May 9th   #5
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also, speaking of E30's i have one for sale if anyone is interested. Here's the ad:

http://huntsville.craigslist.org/cto/2364151087.html

the price is steep but that can come down quite a bit. i just didn't want to get a whole buch of lowballers, plus i'm still working on it and i don't absolutely need to sell it. but i'd be happy to let it go at any time if the right offer comes along.

and i forgot to mention in the post, but it is a 2-door and there is a small ding in the driver side quarter panel i noticed the other day
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Old May 9th   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdb4879 View Post
yeah, i know you get what you pay for, but i also don't want to dump too much money into something i might not get into. i wanted a second diff so if needed i could just put it back to stock. and it'd be cheap enough that if i do keep the car i didn't lose too much money messing with cheap stuff. i've always liked the s13 hatch's so that's why i said that, but what else is there other than miata's and e30's just out of curiosity?
An investment like a lsd isn't a bad one, even if you end up pursuing something different like drag racing or autocrossing. You'd be surprised to see what other cars can drift. To give you ideas, check out the variety at this event at Gresham Motorsports park or this event in Mississippi:
http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com/showthread.php?t=2583
http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com/showthread.php?t=3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdb4879 View Post
i might now even get a cheap junky one tho, i started looking a bit and i've seen a few decent one's and idk if i could really stand driving a POS. and solid struts were a random thought, and probably not the best one, but how does that sound? and thanks for the tips and i'll be sure to be safe. i'm really good about knowing when to do "stupid stuff" so that it isn't actually "stupid"
The key to drift is the power and suspension. A good alignment setup will make the car much more prone to drift, and with a good power setup and a locking lsd, you could have a lot of fun.
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Old May 9th   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdb4879 View Post
also, speaking of E30's i have one for sale if anyone is interested. Here's the ad:

http://huntsville.craigslist.org/cto/2364151087.html
Feel free to post it here too. And pictures help a lot with any ad, so I'd add some if you have them.
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Old May 9th   #8
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You can drift any RWD car, some cars are just easier because of wheelbase and weight.

If you are deadset on an s13 hatch, i might be able to find you one that needs a motor for cheap. and SR's are cheap good motors. You could also look at 83-87 toyota corolla sr-5/gts, they are a great drift platform.

I would spend the money on a good lsd, and if you decide drifting isn't for you, you can resell it for not much of a loss.

If you already have an e30, I'd use that personally. Though I'd pull the heavy motor out of it, and go with like an sr swap or something.

Are you going to be putting the car together yourself, or having someone else do it?
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Old May 10th   #9
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yeah, I would've used the E30 too, but I don't know how many problems it really has. It seems like it has electrical issues, but those could always be stuck relays. And I've been spending almost 3 months now try to get a driveline in it so I've just been getting tired of seeing it sit in my yard. Plus a blown head gasket on top of that and various missing parts.

I also like my BMW's to be basically factory. I may like modding the motors, but it would have to be the motor that came in them, and the M20B25 makes a good bit of power from the factory. (but I have seen SR swaps in them and that sounds really cool)

And I really just bought to car to make some extra cash. Plus like I said, I've always liked the S13 hatch's and parts and car seem fairly cheap and readily available, and they're torquey in stock form. I usually don't like going the same route as everyone else, but its cheap and proven to work.

The more I look into it the more I think I would put out the extra money for good parts, too. LSD's do seem reasonable and I don't like the thought of driving something thats rigged together.

Samir, I wish I had good pics to send you, but they're all on my phone and I don't have my camera. I'm not sure if you'll need them though cuz I just checked my e-mail (which I do like once a week and you're about to hear why I need to check it more) and I had like five people ask about it . so the E30 might go, which would give me a good start on a drift project if I decide to go that route
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Old May 10th   #10
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You can upload pics straight from your phone. Simply email them to huntsvillecarscene@email.smugmug.com with 'Upload' (case sensitive) in the subject line. They'll end up in this gallery:
http://newpics.huntsvillecarscene.co...15661889_RBWZs
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Old May 10th   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdb4879 View Post
Plus like I said, I've always liked the S13 hatch's and parts and car seem fairly cheap and readily available, and they're torquey in stock form. I usually don't like going the same route as everyone else, but its cheap and proven to work.
There's something you can do that's not too common, but works too--a high compression KA motor. I saw it done back in the day to the Altima and it was able to put about 200hp in the motor that normally would have 150hp and be just as reliable. Apparently some drifters do it, but most opt to slap on a small turbo because it's easier.
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Old May 10th   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdb4879 View Post
yeah, I would've used the E30 too, but I don't know how many problems it really has. It seems like it has electrical issues, but those could always be stuck relays. And I've been spending almost 3 months now try to get a driveline in it so I've just been getting tired of seeing it sit in my yard. Plus a blown head gasket on top of that and various missing parts.

I also like my BMW's to be basically factory. I may like modding the motors, but it would have to be the motor that came in them, and the M20B25 makes a good bit of power from the factory. (but I have seen SR swaps in them and that sounds really cool)

And I really just bought to car to make some extra cash. Plus like I said, I've always liked the S13 hatch's and parts and car seem fairly cheap and readily available, and they're torquey in stock form. I usually don't like going the same route as everyone else, but its cheap and proven to work.

The more I look into it the more I think I would put out the extra money for good parts, too. LSD's do seem reasonable and I don't like the thought of driving something thats rigged together.

Samir, I wish I had good pics to send you, but they're all on my phone and I don't have my camera. I'm not sure if you'll need them though cuz I just checked my e-mail (which I do like once a week and you're about to hear why I need to check it more) and I had like five people ask about it . so the E30 might go, which would give me a good start on a drift project if I decide to go that route
SR's are good motors, and the e30 is an AMAZING chassis.

I'm thinking RB's:
If you are dead set on an s13 hatch you could, if you wanted to do something a little different is go with an RB26DETT. Alot of people are doing rb25det swaps, but 26 swaps are still pretty rare. SR's are much cheaper, make good power, and rev quickly though.

Definitely invest in a good LSD, you will be greatful for it later.

As I've said, it all depends on how much you are wanting/willing to spend on the car/build. If you need any help with suggestions or parts, I'd be happy to help. =)

Quote:
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There's something you can do that's not too common, but works too--a high compression KA motor. I saw it done back in the day to the Altima and it was able to put about 200hp in the motor that normally would have 150hp and be just as reliable. Apparently some drifters do it, but most opt to slap on a small turbo because it's easier.
NO! NONONONONONONONONONONO! sorry, I hate KA's :>
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Old May 10th   #13
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NO! NONONONONONONONONONONO! sorry, I hate KA's :>
Why? They can't rev very high or any of that jaz, but they are built well and can produce decent torque for a s13.
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Old May 11th   #14
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Common Nissan motor swaps for S chassis info:

CA18DET

Displacement - 1809cc
Bore - 83mm
Stroke - 83.6mm
Compression - 9.5:1(DE) 8.5:1(DET)
Horsepower - 135 HP @6400RPM(DE) 175 HP @6400RPM(DET)
Torque - 115 ft/lbs @5200(DE) 166 ft/lbs @4000(DET)


SR20DET

S13 (including both red and black top SRs for the 180sx)

Displacement: 1998cc (2.0 liter) DOHC 16 valve
Bore and stroke: 86mm x 86mm
Compression: 8.5 : 1
Horsepower: 205hp at 6000rpm
Torque: 203 ft/lbs at 4000rpm
Stock boost: 7 psi
Throttle body bore: 60mm
Injector size: 370cc/min
Turbo: T25
High Port Head

S14 changes:

Horsepower: 220hp at 6000rpm
Torque: 203 ft/lbs at 4800rpm
Turbo: T28
Low Port Head

S15 changes:

Horsepower: 250hp at 6000rpm
Transmission: 6 Speed, Close Ratio
Injector size: 480cc/min
Turbo: Upgraded T28


1989-1990 Nissan 240SX

Engine: KA24E - Single Over Head Cam
Displacement: 2.4L
Body Style: Hatchback/Coupe
Weight: 2684lbs

Horsepower: 140hp @ 5,600rpm or approximately 126whp (wheel horsepower) @ 5,600rpm
Torque: 152 ft-lbs @ 4,400 or approximately 146 ft-lbs wtq (wheel torque) @ 4,400rpm

Compression: 8.5:1 or 9.1:1
Cylinder Compression:
Standard: 192
Minimum: 142

1991-1998 Nissan 240SX

Engine: KA24DE - Dual Over Head Cam
Displacement: 2.4L
Body Style: Hatchback (S13 only)/Coupe

Horsepower: 155hp @ 5600rpm or 140whp (wheel horsepower) @ 5600rpm
Torque: 160 ft-lbs @ 4400rpm or 154 ft-lbs wtq @ 4400rpm.

Compression: 9.5:1
Compression:
Standard: 180
Minimum: 150


RB20DET

No. and arrangement of cylinders = 6, in-line, vertical
Combustion chamber type = Hemi-spherical
Valve arrangement = Overhead valve type
Camshaft arrangement = Double Overhead Camshaft
Total displacement cc = 1998cc
Bore x Stroke mm = 78.0 x 69.7
Compression = 8.5:1
Bhp = 214bhp at 6600rpm at flywheel
transmission loss = 38bhp
torque = 185 lb/ft

1. RB20DET

This motor is a common choice among RB enthusiets. It pretty cheap (cheapest of the RB's). prices can range anywhere from about 1500(motorset) to about 2500(clip) it depends on where you get it from. its got good potential and its reliable(as are all the RB engiens). Its a 2.0L straight 6 single turbo.

RB20 specific site: www.rb20det.com

misc info:
Speed sensor will interchange with the stock KA24 sensor and your speedometer will be accurate.

You do not need custom mounts or driveshaft, the KA driveshaft and R32 crossmember work fine.
Tach can be calibrated to be correct, and the entire KA gauge cluster can be made to work.

Parts needed for Rb20swap:
RB20 front clip (makes the swap much easier to have a clip)
Fuel pump (300ZX, skyline, walbro 255, denso supra etc) you cant use KA.
radiator (KA one overheats way to quickly)
KA 5 spd driveshaft
theoretically thats all you need. there will always be more

other info:

rb20 plugs are NGK PFR5A 11

rb20 holds 4.25 quarts of oil

uses z32 n/a clutch

uses z32 oil filter

In the engine code RB20DET:

RB = engine series.

20 = displacement (2.0L)

D = DOHC (Dual Overhead Cam)

E = ECCS which stands for 'Electronically Concentrated engine Control System.' Basicly how the ECU uses all of the sensors to manage the engine and how it's running.( sombody correct me on this if im wrong)

T = Single turbo


2. RB25DET

This and the RB20 are the usual choice of people who do RB swaps. the RB25 is more expensive. anywhere from 500 - 1.5k more than than the RB20. again it depends on where you get the motor/clip from. the RB25 is a 2.5L straight 6 single turbo. Its got more power than the RB20 as well as more tq.
You do not need custom mounts, the stock crossmember bolts up fine, if you re-drill it about 1" back for the motor mounts, their are no clearance problems except the hood, and the shifter is centered.

The speed sensor, you can swap the small gears off the end with the KA24 or SR20 wheels. You may also be able to use a 300zx speed sensor pinion (not verified)

You DO need a custom driveshaft.

The entire gauge cluster can be made to work accurately (same as RB20)
RB25 specific site: http://www.rb25det.org

RB25 parts needed for swap:
RB25 clip.
Custom driveshaft
Fuel pump.
Radiator.
custom tranny mount plates
again theoretically this is all you need.

Engine code RB25DET:

RB = engine series.

25 = displacement (2.5L)

D = DOHC (Dual Overhead Cam)

E = ECCS which stands for 'Electronically Concentrated engine Control System.' Basicly how the ECU uses all of the sensors to manage the engine and how it's running.

T = Single turbo


3. RB26DETT aka the godzilla motor.

This is the god motor. Its used in the Skyline JGTC cars for a reason. the RB26 is basically a detuned race engine. It was actually designed for race use more than street use. It is the most cabable RB motor that rolled out of nissan. Although its sounds great, its also the most expensive. you need an RB25 transmition to use with the RB26. You can use the AWD trans that came from factory but it makes things alot more complcated. you might want to contact 180GTR on here about that. The RB26's can run about 3500-6500(6500 as listed on mckinney's website the highest ive ever seen). Installation is also the most difficult of the RB motors. Engine code R26DETT:

RB = engine series.

26 = displacement (2.6L)

D = DOHC (Dual Overhead Cam)

E = ECCS which stands for 'Electronically Concentrated engine Control System.' Basicly how the ECU uses all of the sensors to manage the engine and how it's running.

TT = Twin Turbo


RB specific:

RB intake plenums will not interchange without an adapter plate, or new mounting points.

The RB20 and RB25 exhaust manifolds are interchangable. The RB26 has a twin setup so it is not interchangeable with the RB20 nor the RB25.

an RB26dett turbo is not better than an RB25 or RB20 turbo, it's too small and is chosen for a twin setup.

also an A31 cefiro crossmember will mount the RB20 and 25 fine, (not sure about the 26) you may have no clearance issues at all since the Cefiro is extremely close to an S13 and comes with a RB20 stock. (not confirmed this yet)

Above info taken from: http://www.son240sx.org/showthread.p...vs.-VQ-vs.-LSx
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Old May 11th   #15
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Quote:
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Why? They can't rev very high or any of that jaz, but they are built well and can produce decent torque for a s13.
To make a KA worth anything, you will usually end up spending as much if not more along with 2+ motors. They are great motors until you boost them. Don't get me wrong I love my nissan's, as you know but, IMO an SR would be the most cost effective way to do it. The swaps are cheap, and you can get more power out of it without changing internals than the KA, it revs faster, and it's lighter.
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Old May 11th   #16
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They are great motors until you boost them. Don't get me wrong I love my nissan's, as you know but, IMO an SR would be the most cost effective way to do it. The swaps are cheap, and you can get more power out of it without changing internals than the KA, it revs faster, and it's lighter.
Oh yeah, turboing them is pointless, but is the only way to truly break the 200hp mark. The longer stroke and compresion just makes running any double digit psi dangerous or short-lived.

Some really great info posted about all the engines. I didn't realize an SR20DET produced enough power straight out of the box to compete with a high-compression KA. What's the stock power rating of the rb25det and rb26dett? I think I know the rb26dett off-hand, but never really knew the rb25det figure.

I remember back in the day someone took the SR connecting rods/pistons and found them to be compatible with the KA block, allowing for good boost especially since the KA block is iron. Something for someone to play with if they want to go in a completely unique direction.
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Old May 11th   #17
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There were a variety of 2.0 L RB20 engines produced:

* RB20E - single-cam (96 to 110 kW (130 to 145 ps) @ 5600 rpm, 167 to 181 Nm (17 to 18,5 kgfm) @ 4400 rpm)
* RB20ET - single-cam turbocharged (125 kW (170 PS) @ 6000 rpm, 206 Nm (21.0 kgfm) @ 3200 rpm)
* RB20DE - twin-cam (110 to 114 kW (150 to 155 PS) @ 6400 rpm, 181 to 186 Nm (18.5 to 19 kgfm) @ 5600
* RB20DET - twin-cam turbocharged (158 kW (215 PS) @ Nm (27.0 kgfm) @ 3200 rpm)
* RB20P - single-cam (94 PS @5600 rpm and 142 Nm @2400 rpm)
* RB20DET-R - twin-cam turbocharged (210 ps @6400 rpm and 245 Nm @4800 rpm
* NEO RB20DE - twin-cam 155 PS, improved low end torque, reduced fuel consumption and emissions.

The 2.5 L RB25 engine was produced in four forms:

* RB25DE - NON-TURBO twin-cam 140 kW/190 PS (180 - 200hp ) @ 6000 rpm, 255 Nm (26.0 kgfm) @ 4000 rpm)
* RB25DET - twin-cam TURBO (T3 Turbo) (245 to 250 hp and 319 Nm)
* NEO RB25DE- NON-TURBO twin-cam 147 kW/200 PS @ 6000 rpm, 255 Nm (26.0 kgfm) @ 4000 rpm)
* NEO RB25DET - twin-cam TURBO (206 kW (280 PS) @ 6400 rpm, 362 Nm (37.0 kgfm) @ 3200 rpm)

The first 2.6 L RB26DETT featured twin-turbochargers and produced around 280 HP (206 kW) @ 6800 rpm and 260 ft•lb (353 N•m) @ 4400 rpm. The last series of the RB26DETT produced 280 PS (206 kW) @ 6800 rpm and 289 ft•lb (392 N•m) @ 4400 rpm. However, several stock (unmodified) engines have been dyno tested and reported to obtain closer to the 330 HP mark.

Four models of 3.0 L RB30 were produced:

* RB30S - carburetted single-cam
* RB30E - fuel-injected single-cam (114 kW @ 5200 rpm, 247 Nm (25.2 kgfm) @ 3600 rpm)
* RB30E R31 Skyline - fuel-injected single-cam (117 kW @ 5200 rpm, 252 Nm (25.2 kgfm) @ 3600 rpm)
* RB30ET VL Commodore - fuel-injected single-cam turbo (150 kW @ 5600 rpm, 296 Nm @ 3200 rpm)


My RB26DETT in 100% unmolested stock for put down 298RWHP (Front Driveshaft disconnected). With just an intake, exhaust, timing out of whack and a leak around my intake plenum, it did 311.2AWHP.

Hope this info helps, I can go more in depth instead of copy-pasting some stuff if you want but I was being lazy...lol

Last edited by cLc; May 11th at 09:49 AM.
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Old May 11th   #18
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Very cool! I had no idea there were so many variations in the RB series. What's the P designator for? I know what the D E and T are for, but I've never seen the P.

Memory served me correctly on the rb26dett as I remembered 280. Now memory serves me that it would be around 400hp (not whp) with intake and exhaust. Is my memory correct?
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Old May 11th   #19
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Quote:
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Very cool! I had no idea there were so many variations in the RB series. What's the P designator for? I know what the D E and T are for, but I've never seen the P.

Memory served me correctly on the rb26dett as I remembered 280. Now memory serves me that it would be around 400hp (not whp) with intake and exhaust. Is my memory correct?
The P is the designation for the Autogas "Liquified Petroleum Gas" (LPG) version of the RB20, but with only 12 valves.

Intake, exhaust, and a boost controller and you can have about 400 to the wheels. So for less than $1000 in parts you can have a pretty beastly car...400AWHP, yes please =>

Edit: I want an RB30 bottom end...put a 25/26 head on it, built with a big single...mmmmmm....STUPID power =D

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Old May 11th   #20
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The P is the designation for the Autogas "Liquified Petroleum Gas" (LPG) version of the RB20, but with only 12 valves.

Intake, exhaust, and a boost controller and you can have about 400 to the wheels. So for less than $1000 in parts you can have a pretty beastly car...400AWHP, yes please =>

Edit: I want an RB30 bottom end...put a 25/26 head on it, built with a big single...mmmmmm....STUPID power =D
Very interesting. I didn't know any manufacturer made a specific LPG engine. You'd see conversion kits like this in India where people could shut off the fuel pump and switch to LPG while driving.

Looks like my memory served me pretty well.

That would be insane and into Supra territory.
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